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Prayer.

Islam is a belief system that fails any test of logic and reason. When compared to Roman Catholicism where two millenia have been dedicated to proving God’s existence with reason and rigor, islam is like watching a child stick its fingers in it’s ears and go la-la-la, I can’t hear you.
That example is the crux of the problem we in the West have with islam. They are incapable of further development within thier existing religious framework. Any ‘growth’ must be outside of thier doctrine because it is rigid and fixed for all eternity. Of course that means that anyone who finds a better path is considered an apostate and must be re-educated or killed.
This is the only part of islam that is perfect (see Christine’s System Statements above) - it can not be reformed because the reformation carries a penalty of death for the reformer.

This brings us to the ‘Nuke mecca’ meme Baron raises. While he did not state a situation that leads to the nukeing of mecca, I assume he means the action would be a pre-emptive strike. In this case I agree that a strike on mecca would only act to reinforce the child like behavior and end any possibility of non-commited muslims to cooperate with the West. The sides would be fixed forever and only one will emerge ‘victorious’.

However as a response to a catastrophic attack on the US or perhaps Israel, I would certainly hope serious consideration would be given to nuking mecca. What would we have to lose at that point? Their doctrine clearly denies the concept of ‘innocent civilians’, and thier actions backup dogma with deed.
Any large scale attack on us must be met with swift and absolute vengence without regard to ‘collateral damge’. Anything less and we will show a level of weakness that we could never recover from. Muslims would see it as abject weakness, lack of will, self doubt, and a completerepudiation of our culture. But far worse, those citizens who do have the will to fight, would be so demoralized that I fear for an internal struggle for power within our nation.

So, nukeing mecca in one instance would commit us to an unending battle, in the other, it may be the first real step to ending that battle.
In both cases it’s really about who we are.

With all respect to religious persons reading: “Prayer”, other than as a means of clearing the heart and mind prior to action and effort on behalf of the neighbor you are commanded to love, is exactly the fatalism and magical thinking the Baron is speaking of. There is no sword (as in quick solution) to cut this knot (that I know of) besides a total war campaign against the entire Muslim world, an undesirable outcome for any moral person. Even if such a thing became inevitable, there could be no victors and the survivors would be damned.

I do have some ideas, but they all take time. Consider System Statement #5: “All statements criticizing Islam by non-Muslims, Critical Muslims or apostates are false.”, it only really works if the source of criticism can be silenced. Granted this has been acomplished fairly well in much of the Middle-East, nevertheless apostates and dissidents of Islam can be found there and around the world, not to mention victims of Islam. Again granted, this population of dissidents and Enlightenment ideologues is small compared to the masses and very much in danger, but that is precisely my point: If Ali Sina, and others, are correct and Islam is or predisposes to violent cult-like behavior and alienation from the rest of the human race, then the best ‘deprogrammers’ will be former Muslims or instructed and advised by them. This is why these people (vocal former Muslims) are actully in more danger from Islamic Fascists than Westerners (in the short term), the enemy knows their Achilles’s Heel and works to protect it.

I know we all want to do something “right now” that will make a difference, but talk of “nuking Mecca” and “interning or deporting all Muslims” is at best fantasy prone and at worst psychpathic drivel. We should instead work together now to globally organize the Muslim dissidents to thwart Jihadi advances wherever strategically viable. Consider that a significant proportion of Muslims in the U.S. are refugees from the Jihad itself, natural allies who simply distrust our government’s committment to their cause. I’m still new to these forums, but I like what I see. When I get better oriented, I’ll try to elaborate further. And finally remember, every former/dissident Muslim killed by Jihadis is one less person to talk sense into the rest of the Islamic world. Time is running out.

Dionysos -

Prayer = total annihilation. Interesting . . .

Using this theme (nuke the…), will only make this forum a certain target of the disinformation war of the islamo-fascist movement, along the “drive-by-media”, to use Rush’s term.
We must be much more smarter than that, because the bedouins certainly are.
Never, ever, underestimate the enemy, and, above all, let’s not provide them ammunition to be used against us.

voirdire,

Actually, I was presenting a dichotomy between: (a) prayer as fatalism and magical thinking, and (b) prayer as love and sacrifice, or attempting to.

I don’t have an overall strategy on how to deal with Islam either, but I think we need to start with the understanding that Jihad is not an aberration; rather it is a symptom of a disease called Islam.

‘Moderate’ Muslims are apathetic Muslims of no value to Islam other than as quite cheerleaders and certainly of no help to us infidels. Don’t for a minute think that a significant proportion of Muslims in the U.S. are natural allies. They are anything but. They are operating madrassas much like in Pakistan teaching their childred to hate, amassing funding for jihadists and developing propaganda. Can you say CAIR?

I don’t advocate Nuking Mecca, but it could someday become a necessary option.

At the very least, all Muslims should be viewed with suspicion just as a known pedophile not be invited to your child’s pajama party.

I think that “nuking” Mecca in response to a terrorist attack is a bad idea. First, I think that it is morally wrong. To indiscriminately kill thousands of innocent civilians is the exact thing the terrorists do. Secondly, the Muslim response to such an action would immediately create the most dangerous time in world history. Iran, who probably is on the track for nuclear weapons, might use it against us. Thousands, more like millions, would die in a nuclear Holocaust.
The Crusades would look minor.

Doesn’t that scenario just sound like fun? No. I suggest we put this idea in the trash can.

two options:

1) nuke them
2) nuke us

because if we don’t go with #1, they will go with #2.

Hello (and Merry Christmas!)

Scrilla, perhaps if you reread the posts you’ll see that we may have opportunity to move on from simplistic, unworkable ’solutions’; which I as well find morally reprehensible (at least when not under

So, as Baron wrote in his beginning of this post. We may be able to move on from unemployable ideals or absolutes that would not have any basis for solving the problem; unless you want to take out most of London and the US, and Canada, and Australia as well. For where is ‘them’? “They” are among us. There is no one clear cut solution here, although many good ones, that are practically useful. Dionysos, please join us on the 910 Forum; I’m sure we can work together.

Vicktorya

From Baron, in the original post:
” I don’t have much time for the “Nuke Mecca” meme, especially when used with ad hominem arguments that dismiss any other approach as lacking in rigor or realism or military experience or analytic depth or whatever. I think the idea is morally bankrupt, and basically nihilistic. Like all nihilism, it is the lazy fellow’s way out of actually engaging in the hard work of working politically and using the legal tools of information warfare. It’s a reversion to the Dresden or Hiroshima bombings — a third generation warfare solution to a fourth or fifth generation warfare problem.

“The Nuke Mecca meme itself is a prime example of “magical thinking,” a kind of solipsistic enjoyment of the fantasy of removing a great danger with a grand technological feat, dismissing all critics of the idea as appeasers or ameliorators. At the very least, were it actually to be done, the iron law of unintended, unforeseeable consequences would apply.

Having said that, the need addressed by the Nuke Mecca meme is real — each of us longs for a way to blast through the fatalism, the internally locked logical system of Islamic supremacism and intra-Muslim discourse.

“I don’t have an answer, but I would challenge the readers of this blog to consider whether there are any other ways to break the knot — ones that don’t actually involve the deaths of tens of thousands and a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East. …”

And towards those real life, practical, implementable, best solutions, we do strive.
With you,
Vic
Send message with how you can help this salvaging project, of resistance and rebirth — send an email with details about your work, suggestions, and any URL’s — to 910-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

We have to work this out together, and ‘nuke em’ isn’t yet one of 910’s objectives, anyway! (Heck, we’ll have the IAEA on our rear if we begin the NGO Nuclear Proliferation Agreement.

errata to above post: I finger fired before I could get the full first round off. Here is the first sentence, more fully:

… If you reread the posts you’ll see that we may have opportunity to move on from simplistic, unworkable ’solutions’; which I as well find morally reprehensible (at least when not fully thought out with all possible consequences duly noted and rigorously debated.) This does not apply to immediate self-defense. Of course one could say we need self-defense now, we are at war now. Certainly that is legitimate assessment.

Now, neither am I unappreciative of disproportionate force; however, in some way I have a fierce hope that we can be smarter than this ‘nuke em’ meme. My primary analysis of it is that it is immature thinking. Not an insult, just my recognition. I do understand the outrage that causes one to ‘go there’ in thought, but we must make the thinking live up to our ideals, as well as our action live up to our highest level of thought.

Merry Christmas,
again and again,
Vicktorya

WE ARE FACING WHAT OUR “FOREFATHERS” FACED DURING THE END OF THEIR TIME AS ‘LEADER”. WHETHER IT WAS THE MAYA, THE ROMANS, THE HUNS, ETC…..WAS THEIR “END” INEVITABLE? IF SO AT WHAT POINT WOULD HAVE A CHANGE OF BEHAVIOUR MADE THE UNQUALIFIED DIFFERENCE? DO WE FIT THIS CYCLICAL MODEL OF CIVILATIONS THAT ARE OVERTAKEN OR DESTROYED BY EVOLUTION OR DE-EVOLUTION IN THINKING?( NEW WEAPONS, NEW GERMS, NEW ENVIRONMENT ETC…) IT’S NOTONLY THE RELIGION STUPID! IT’S OUR MINDSET, OUR SYSTEMS, OUR LACK OF IMAGINATION ETC…ETC….WE ARE STILL TRYING TO TREAT A SICK PATIENT WITH BUBONIC PLAGUE WITH “BLOODLETTING” OR SOME OTHER ANTIQUATED DEVICE. THE PROBLEM LIES IN OUR OWN WAYS……

IF THAT IS THE LEVEL OF APOCALYPSE WE FACE HERE AND NOW AND I BELIEVE IT IS THEN I THINK WE NEED:

#1 CHANGE IN ASSESMENT OF THE SITUATION FROM OUR LEADERSHIP(FROM LOCAL TO CIVILIZATIONAL)WE MUST EMPHAZISE OUR SHARED NECESITIES FOR SURVIVAL. I MEAN THAT THERE IS NEARLY A DIFFERENT VIEW OF OUR SITUATION FROM PERSON TO PERSON, CITY TO CITY , COUNTRY TO COUNTRY ETC…. WE DON’T HAVE A HANDLE ON OUR PERSPECTIVES AS A WHOLE,THUS OUR RESPONSE IS STILL EASILY DEFEATED IDEOLOGICALLY BY OUR ADVERSARIES THROUGH MEDIA, POLITICS, EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS ETC…. BY FOMENTING AND ENCOURAGING DIVISIVNESS( ‘THE RIGHT” VS ‘THE LEFT”/ LIBS VS CONSERVATIVES, SHIITE VS SUNNI WHATEVER) DIVISIVNESS IS THE ENEMY NOW!

#2 CHANGE IN ACTION TOWARDS DEFEATING OUR ADVERSARIES. INCREASE OUR ABILITIES AS CIVILIZATIONAL WARFIGHTERS: WE MUST STEP UP AND COME TOWARDS NATIONAL UNITY BY ELIMINATING (PERHAPS TEMPORARILY)THE REPUBLICANS VS THE DEMOCRATS PARTY SYSTEM.I BELIEVE OUR SYSTEM OF GOV’T IS OBSOLETE. WE MUST EVOLVE IN KEEPING WITH OUR CONSTITUTION AND PRICIPLES OF FREEDOM AND JUSTICE. WE MUST START OVER WITH A GOVERNMENT OF NATIONAL UNITY DUE TO THE FAILURE OF OUR CURRENT SYSTEM TO PROPERLY HANDLE THE THREATS AND CHALLENGES WE FACE. REDUCE GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY. MOVE FOR A NATIONAL DISCOURSE TOWARDS THIS: HOW TO OVERCOME A CIVILIZATIONAL THREAT SUCH AS THIS. WE HAVE PERSEVERED AND BEEN SUCCESFUL IN 2 CIVILIZATIONAL CONFLICTS IN THE 20TH CENTURY COMMUNISM AND FASCISM. NOT NECESARRILY “DEFEATING” THEM BUT OUTLASTING THEM, OUTTHINKING THEM, OUT INVENTING THEM , OUT SURVIVING THEM ETC…….IT’S GOT TO START RIGHT HERE AND NOW ON OUR OWN DOORSTEP.WHY IN THIS ERA OF GLOBALIZATION WHERE THE WORLD IS “FLAT” AND COMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION SHARING IS SO ADVANCED ARE WE UNABLE TO INVOLVE THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR ADULTS IN A CONSESUS BUILDING NATIONAL DISCOURSE SUCH AS THIS? WHAT WE ARE MISSING IS THE WILL ON BEHALF OF OUR LEADERSHIP TO PERMIT REVOLUTIONARY CHANGES SUCH AS NATIONWIDE FREE INTERNET AND CABLE, WIFI, CELLULAR SERVICE ETC…WE MUST COME TOGETHER.

DREW

SATX

Drew:
Thanks for your perspective. On the whole I agree with it. What, however, would you specifically suggest as an achievable step that we can do, to achieve your #1 or #2.
thanks,
Vicktorya

VICKTORYA,
I HAVE REALLY ENJOYED MY FIRST READING WITH THIS GROUP. I LOOK FORWARD TO MORE.
I MUST THINK ON THE QUESTIONS YOU BRING UP.
THANK YOU ,
GOOD NIGHT!
(MERRY CHRISTMAS!!)

V,
achievable steps that we can do….
IT IS ONLY ONCE YOU REALLY LOOK AT THIS WAR FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A SOLDIER THAT YOU BEGIN TO CAPTURE THE ENORMITY OF THE ADVERSARY(S). IT IS WITH THIS IN MIND THAT I SUGGESTTHESE SIMPLE, ELEMENTAL STEPS I BELIEVE MUST BE TAKEN IMMEDIATELY. AT THE RISK OF COMING OFF PRETENTIOUSLY.I AM SURE YOU HAVE OR ARE IMPLEMENTING SOME OR ALL OF THESE AS WE SPEAK. ACHIEVABLE ACTIONS IN OUR CURRENT PHASE IN THE “WAR ON MILITANT ISLAM”

DEFINE OUR ENEMY
STUDY THE WAYS AND METHODS OF OUR ENEMY
DEFINE OUR STRUGGLE
INCREASE OUR SKILLS, KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITIES IN KEEPING WITH OUR MISSION
INCREASE THE PARTICIPATION AND MEMBERSHIP OF SAFE AND RELIABLE MEMBERS
FORM GROUPS OUTSIDE THE ETHER
SUPPORT POLITICAL LEADERSHIP THAT CAN HELP US IN OUR MISSION

Nuking Mecca may well be what will happen, along with many other cities, out of the current wave of Islamic expansionism given the technological and ideological state of the world.

The only way out of it that I see, short of such cataclysmic events creating an entirely new and darker period, would be for the Islamic world to experience a tide of conversions to a belief system that rejects the very fatalism and tribalism of Islam–presumably Christianity.

Great discussion here!

If military decisions had been left to most of you during WWII we would all be speaking Japanese right now.

Hello James:

Fortunately (true I think) military decisions are not in most of our hands. We have a diverse war now, and in the realms most of us are able to partake in, that is an information war. While public support for extreme actions is and will be necessary, I do experience ennui, if not amusement, at those who come in to a forum for practical projects (which is what 910 Group is about)and suggest the only answer is “nuke Mecca”.

Personally, I think the dropping of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was one of the greatest events in mankind’s history.

So, now what do you suggest we do about immigration, homeland defense, prison recruitment, the influence of CAIR and the ACLU, dhimmitude in Europe, and the rewriting of history in textbooks?

It was this mismatch of ‘what we can do’ and ‘what needs done’, in the forum, which particularly highlighted this common reaction that nukes are the first, only, and best answer to all problems we are facing.

Still doesn’t make sense to me, but, I’m listening.
thanks for contributing,
Vicktorya

My personal view is that the use of thermonuclear devices must be reserved for deterrence: specifically a credible promise to blast Mecca in the event of any further attack on our soil. The ultimate expression of that opinion now has 67 endorsements; you can read it here: http://www.petitiononline.com/Mekkah/petition.html .

Unfortunately, our current leadership lacks the requisite resolve to make the declaration. We continue to live one day at a time, waiting for the next abomination to occur.

The total, complete & permanent defeat of Islam will not be accomplished with nukes. It can only be accomplished with some mix of conventional weapons and the unknown super weapon.

Fortunately, Muhammad unwittingly gave us the unknown super weapon: his own canon of scripture–Qur’an, Sunnah & Sirah.

To the extent that any of Allah’s slaves retains a scintilla of vestigial conscience, they are susceptible to the ultimate weapon: truth. The first hint is offered by Sahih Muslim Book 020, Number 4607:
It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn ‘Umar who said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade that one should travel to the land of the enemy taking the Qur’an with him.

8:65 makes a promise which Allah has failed to keep: A ten to one advantage against Kuffar. Israel won four wars against overwhelming numbers & weaponry. From this we learn the most important fact: Allah is an impotent idol. That is why Islam can not tolerate Israel’s existence. We must rub their noses in it.

The Sira & Sunnah show Muhammad to be a murdering rapist, lecher, pederast & pirate. What God would select an unrepentant sinner as his final messenger?

We need to expose Ummah al Islamiyya to a clear dramatization of the Qur’an & Hadith. They need to see Muhammad suborning murder, issuing situational scripture, raping Safiya and committing genocide against the Banu Qurayzah.

Ultimately, it should be done by someone with lots of chutzpah, SISU & money. It should be distributed world wide on film and by satellite broadcast. That is why I created this on line petition asking Mel Gibson to take on the project: http://www.petitiononline.com/MGP05/petition.html .

That may never come off. Until it does, we can start out small and hope for growth. Animated cartoons could be distributed on the web. Churches could dramatize a few ahadith, perhaps modeled on the popular Halloween Hell Houses.

Exposure of Allah & his messenger as an idol and a thug will plant the seed of doubt and introspection which can bloom into apostasy. Mass apostasy can bring down Islam’s house of cards as effectively as the H bomb.

Best of all, we don’t need a declaration of war or Security Council resolutions to implement the truth bomb. We can start with small scale demonstration programs, and expand to the big screen later.

Take the initiative; start the ball rolling. Highlight 2:216, 3:151, 8:12, 8:39, 8:67, 9:29 & 33:26-27 in a Qur’an, present it to your Pastor, Priest or Rabbi and ask him to read them from the pulpit. Every flood begins with a single drop of rain. Every war begins with a first shot. If not now, when? If not you, who? Start something good today!!

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